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NCSU Men’s Basketball - Reality that Season of DREAMS turning NIGHTMARISH!!

I think that, with Troll’s approval (now forgiveness...) we need a thread discussing the current situation. This is NOT a #FireHMBBCKK movement, just a reality that in the fourth year, we are no where even close to what we had hoped to be. Same can be said for Indiana but the expectations there are ghoulish... NOT an Archie fan and don’t know if he would have the same support or following.

This prompted me. I have talked a couple of times to the owner of the R&W store...he is a good guy.

The comments about past coaches and such, plus I watched Bobby Purcell in an OLD clip where he wore Sloan’s blazer and talked about Case after last Saturday’s CUSE victory....ACCN used it as a filler..

Let the debate and discussion begin...

Men’s Basketball Future
  1. Pick the year that Boo will be recruiting a HMBBC...19 votes
    1. 2021
    2. 2022
    3. 2023
    4. 2024
    5. NEVER...Boo’s haunting another Athletic Department
  2. Will the NCAA lower the boom on the MBB Program19 votes
    1. YES....banned forever...
    2. NCSU will terminate the program !
    3. One year of NO Post Season?
    4. Loss of 2 or 3 Scholarships
    5. OTHER UNX prejudiced punishment
  3. Who SHOULD NCSU keep in the TOP FIVE MHBBC list?19 votes
    1. Archie?
    2. Shaka?
    3. Terry Gannon?


  • Vawolf82Vawolf82 Posts: 1,033PFN Referee

    I never thought that this season would be one for the ages. A team that was somewhere between Last Four In and First Four Out needs some high-powered new-comers if significant improvement is going to be made....and State didn't have anyone of that caliber coming in. Though I should add that the team is doing worse than I expected....which was something around .500 in league play.

    I didn't like the next-coaching options on the poll. I would be surprised if any of them were high on the list....whenever that list is pulled out and dusted off.

  • This is a tough one for me. I really like a lot of what KK brings to the table (Recruiting, Style of play, his relationship with the players). However, this year has been a struggle for him to get this team "locked In". Covid, DD going down, Top recruit committed and went G league all have some part to play in this imo. I will say that in game coaching seems to be the weak spot for KK. The decision to give Braxton as much time as he gets is highly questionable to me as well. I would say he gets a pass this year on Covid and the loss of DD alone. My thought is if he can maintain 4* & 5* recruiting with trips to the dance he will be here for awhile. Fail to get that blue chip recruit and no dance we could see a very quick exit.

  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 4,367PFN Referee

    I still want Arch, but that might just be my own lazy thinking (in terms of "go get the guy I wanted last time").

    Of course, that would require "Boo" to thoughtfully examine/understand whether the Indiana experience was a "growth experience" for Arch, or a red flag.

  • RickRick Posts: 2,731PFN Referee

    You are required to answer all questions so I put Terry Gannon but I really do not want him.

    I like KK but do not see the growth necessary to think he will be a good coach. He had weaknesses and has not improved them.

    But the greater question is can State ever be a top basketball team again and my answer to that is, short of a unicorn coach like Bennet, no. The NCAA needs the top teams to succeed to drive revenue. For all of the "Cinderellla" talk during NCAA tournaments, no one watches final fours with Cinderella. They want to watch the blue bloods. Between the cheating the NCAA wanting the top teams I think it is almost impossible to break into that. So I really just do not care.

  • Hire Greg Marshall. He will punch some sense into a team. I kid, I kid...sorta

  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 3,089

    Troll or other moderators, the poll was a bit of sarcasm. No way such a thread will not have names mentioned

    It is past the 60 minute edit, so I can’t kill the poll. I wanted to add Santa Claus as a contender, but hit the post too quick and you can’t edit a poll

    you guys decide to keep or kill. It was not serious, except for the year that BOO calls his cons

  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 4,367PFN Referee

    "Boo" was the name of my cousin's ex-wife, and of course, that character in To Kill A Mockingbird.

    It's thusly hard for me to take him seriously as a university leader.

  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 2,675PFN Referee

    I think the first two questions were more serious and highly valid.

    Let's start with #2. There are only so many options of an outcome there and we KNOW that State's not skating. Ironically UNC getting off means that NC State has to get punished. There's kind of an option you left out there which is where I think we'll end up:

    • 1-2 year post season ban and 1-2 scholarships lost in those years.

    Had that been a poll option, it's what I'd have gone with. Given that is seemingly about the inevitable, I don't know that I understand why we keep postponing things.

    Now to number 1, I don't think KK's the guy. I see too many systemic issues in the program beyond just recruiting. We can't get the 5 star talent needed to push past the coaching without dirty recruiting, and we cannot recruit dirty given the NCAA is watching more closely. It's your classic Catch-22, and why I think we're in basketball purgatory.

    Having said that, I don't care if State loses out, KK's back next year. I'd bet we're too cash strapped to do a buy out. Even if we did, we're going to struggle to hire "better" given the NCAA mess AND whatever massive tanking led to the firing. We'll have driven it off the cliff (again) and be hiring from a position of weakness.

    I hope this is the year that we clean house on assistants and hire ones that can help KK. If so, maybe we see an upward spike next year like HFC DD saw this season? Dare to dream right?

    Let's say the assistants are rotated. We'll know quickly whether that's improved things or not. That's the 2 year plan where we don't do any sort of extension, but let KK work off some of what he's going to get paid because it is contractually owed. So with that in mind I picked 2023, though he might be the place holder through the punishment as well. He'll leave filthy rich for having ZERO expectations beyond not getting his hand caught in the cookie jar.

    As for the third question, it felt more like a litmus test about a couple of candidates. I wanted Arch last time. He was the best guy on the table for NC State. We didn't get it done. So be it. If Boo feels like he is "the guy" and IU were to make a coaching change, then I'd be fine with Boo pulling a quick trigger. We might also be letting the above situation play out and do nothing. While I suspect the latter, I hope Boo's establishing a relationship with Archie so he is more informed.

    I think when the slot eventually does open, we'll quite possibly have a different pool of candidates entirely. There's a shuffling in the ACC coming when K, Roy, Boehiem, Larranaga and Hamilton retire. The view of the difficulty associated with the job might be totally different.

  • I've moved into the Rye camp. I remind myself that Gottfried left a dumpster fire, incomplete roster, recruiting violations lingering, and KK supposedly wanted to play a different style and was forced into mixing a hodgepodge roster. We play hard. I've seen individual improvement among quite a few players, guys maximizing their athletic potential. We just don't play smart or appear to improve our BB IQs over the course of seasons.

  • Vawolf82Vawolf82 Posts: 1,033PFN Referee

    the poll was a bit of sarcasm.

    With Gannon on the list, I assumed it was intended for humor...something we could all probably use.

  • I thought that Sendek should have been fired after year 5.

    I really wanted things to work out with Sidney.

    Gottfried was a disaster.

    I don’t think that Keatts will be fired until after a couple more seasons. However it is painfully obvious that KK is in over his head. In game coaching decisions, substitutions are at best random. At worst, they make little to no sense. I will not go into any more details because we all see the same things.

    The instances of not substituting for obvious fouling situations and starters fouling out was the last straw. I am done with Keatts. He is a dead man walking. It is just a matter of when the move is made. We have witnessed learning on the job with DaveD.

    I just hope that we do not experience a massive group of transfers with the no sit out rules.

  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 3,089

    Take this as a compliment. We need to get our DNA compared. Your handle says a lot. I have been a Wolfpacker since the 7th grade or 1957. That is 64 years of my 75 1/2 years in this world with the soul that I have....don't get me started on that.

    SO, I have been a WP'er for 85% of my life. I have been married, ONCE, and as of today, that is 72.965% (I have a spreadsheet that updates when you open it....drives my DW crazy when I quote a percentage...). So, my first loyalty is God, then Family, then the USA and next the Wolfpack. Thankfully, "Family" includes marriage...

    I could NOT have expressed my sentiments better....but I MORE than wanted Lowe to succeed....for a lot of reasons and meeting him and talking to him during the last two years of his contract made that even stronger.

    SO....we shall see what we shall see and it might not be PRETTY...

  • wolfpack4everwolfpack4ever Posts: 66
    edited February 12

    I will certainly take it as a compliment. Us Wolfpackers have to be tough and stick together.

    We tend to keep coaches too long even when the evidence shows to be strong otherwise. This Covid-19 revenue shortage will delay the wash, rinse, repeat. However if one or more of you wealthy Wolfpackers will volunteer to step up for the buyout; then that can change everything!

    P.S. +1 on the list of priorities!

    Go Pack!

  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 2,675PFN Referee

    We let coaches run things into the ground, removing all doubt that they need to be fired. Of course we don’t think about the fact that the next coach’s job is just that much harder, and thus the job less attractive to good candidates.

  • SamIamSamIam Posts: 638

    None of those names on the list of coaches is appealing to me. To be fair I can't come up with any other names that I'd list as I have lost all hope we will ever compete on a high level.

    I really thought after the first 6 games this team would finish top 3 of the conference this season. Unc sucked, duke sucked and everyone else was beatable. I generally DO NOT have any positive expectations so for me to have mustered up some tell me this is a coaching debacle. The team competes and isn't too frustrating to watch until the second half and THAT lies solely on the shoulders of the coaching staff.

  • I think it is difficult to make a case for letting KK go, even if one acknowledges several red flags, and the likelihood that he isn't the second coming of V, or better.

    He made the tournament his first season, got robbed his second on the bubble, and possibly would've made it last year. This year is a dumpster fire. But it's also unparalleled from the standpoint of trying to work FR guards into a rotation, and transfers, in the midst of a pandemic that limits workouts and hinders cohesiveness, on top of the other issues.

    So while I have concerns and doubts and don't think he's shown he's the guy, I still give him the opportunity for another regular season.

  • 1984Met1984Met Posts: 814

    I think a combo of players out for various reasons plus the team momentum halted for half of January has been a big hurdle to overcome. I have seen the team exert great effort. Effort is a reflection of coaching. Seems our team needs a step up in talent. (Or for talented players to step it up even more?)

  • TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll Posts: 3,158PFN Referee
    edited February 12

    I voiced my strategy in the last game thread.. I'll repeat it here. I think we should try to go out of the box.

    Go CHEAP as can be. I mean dirt dog cheap. Go get the local highschool coach. We suck anyway and who really cares if we finish middle of ACC or bottom of ACC? Save up some money over multiple years with the highschool running the show.

    Then once we can afford to pay big-time money start shopping for big-time coaches. If no freaking awesome big time coaches want to come that year for a boat load of money then stay with the cheap guy and try again next year and able to offer that much more money. Repeat until we land an actual proven good coach.

    It's tiring knowing we pay millions of dollars for coaches we get "on sale" who have a mediocre ceiling at best.

    This IMO gives us best chance for success within the next decade.

  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 4,367PFN Referee

    Boston College is showing how that "dirt cheap" approach pays off.

  • 1984Met1984Met Posts: 814

    I think the last time we hired a high school coach, the results turned out good. Okay, he was a very good high school coach and was given a decent budget.

  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 2,675PFN Referee

    Packi IM’d me a name that would be “cheap” but has a resume better than any coach we have hired in my lifetime. I hope Boo is as creative. These coaches are out there.

  • Fastback68Fastback68 Posts: 1,150

    My wife is calling Vincent Johnson right now. The Microwave. I have no idea who that is since I don’t follow the nba. I’ve been with State bb since 1971.

  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 4,367PFN Referee

    We've been more like "fork in the microwave" eh?

  • I kinda like this idea, even if it is just a pipe dream. I would be willing to work in this role, for a minimum salary, provided I have the "normal" benefits that are afforded to the NCSUHBBC. Pick me, and I'll work hard, always treat the media with respect, and save a crapload of cash for my alma mater so they can pay Nate Oats $10M/year to lead us starting in the early 30's (by then he should be perched securely at the top of the CBB coaching mountain). 'Course, at $10M/yr that might run out after a couple years. But worth it if we can get one natty out of it! 😀

  • Fastback68Fastback68 Posts: 1,150

    Yes, unfortunately. I wholeheartedly understand budgeting and frugality in order to develop a foundation for a better future. There’s a multitude of stories about how State has been “cheap” over the past 60 years and that probably goes back much farther. What really doesn’t reconcile is that it seems we will be stuck in that mode for all eternity. It’s hard to debate the topic of finance when you don’t have access to the financials of every entity surrounding Pack athletics. We are paying DD 3.0mm and KK 2.7m a year? If so, that’s enough to acquire decent coaching if the AD earns his 1.0m searching diligently to find replacements if the time comes. I’m sure we can also debate the cost of quality assistants. I’m not sure of the mindset where the university goes bargain bin hunting for the 2 money sports. We paid up for WBB and look at the results.

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