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California Gives NCAA the Middle Finger.... Athletes can SIGN and get $$'s


https://www.sfgate.com/news/education/article/California-to-let-college-athletes-make-money-14478603.php

Well, i never THOUGHT I'd agree with Mark Cuban.....On anything (even the sun coming up in the EAST);.....but I tend to agree with is succint comment.

IMPLOSION.....LORD......Lets HOPE SO...  Let the Lawyering begin.....CA has the riches to fund the lawyers....and the NCAA has almost a BILLION in reserves (Cash, MMF, Bonds and MF)......so burn, baby burn....the MONEY that is....

https://www.foxbusiness.com/sports/mark-cuban-ncaa-players-profit-implode

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Comments

  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    Cuban’s argument here is weak.  A school typically often makes a one year commitment, and routinely over recruits, cranks up the transfer waiver wire, etc.. In this scenario they fire the kids the same way they do now.

    We are just getting to four year commitments and they aren’t in every sport. Even then there are medical hardships, academic scholarships, etc..

    While I am fine if the NCAA implodes, what we need are viable minor leagues for football and basketball.  Right now those are the colleges.

    I also agree that there will be unintended consequences. The rich schools will have an even bigger advantage.  The poor schools, like little old N.C. State just have the deck stacked further against them.
  • HighstickHighstick Posts: 296PFN Referee
    I'd be perfectly ok if California would drop off into the ocean never to be heard from again!!

  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,598
    Maybe the GubberMint has been experimenting with them French Fries shaped “UFO” and is gonna slice off the Left most (contiguous) State and turn it into an island....OK by me
  • Existing law, known as the Student Athlete Bill of Rights, requires intercollegiate athletic programs at 4-year private universities or campuses of the University of California or the California State University that receive, as an average, $10,000,000 or more in annual revenue derived from media rights for intercollegiate athletics to comply with prescribed requirements relating to student athlete rights.
  • freshmanin83freshmanin83 Posts: 947PFN Referee
    If they get paid will they pay for their own tuition and room and board now?
  • 1984Met1984Met Posts: 121
    Freshmanin83:  My thoughts exactly.  I don't think people realize how expensive and how valuable a college degree can be.  It can't be compared to the NFL, NBA, etc. -- the salaries may be big but most sports professionals have short careers.  A very small percentage of college athletes become "sports professionals" while a much larger percentage of college graduates become "professionals".  My five years at State led to a degree which then turned into a 30+ year career.  (Wish I could have gotten some of the perks the athletes had in the early '80s when I was at State such as a meal plan, tutors, etc. that were tied to an athletic scholarship.)

    There are even a smaller group of people who became sports professionals that then were able to use their college degree to become "professionals".  Sad but true.  What makes it sad to me is when the very good college player does not get their degree and spends life following their sports career struggling through life with low paying jobs.  (Hopefully one of you has some hard facts and I welcome competing opinions.)
  • RickRick Posts: 1,447PFN Referee
    Doesn't this give Cali schools a huge advantage in recruiting? 

    And yes this would make a huge divide between the have and the have not schools.

    College sports suck
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,598
    A bit more info.  Did not realize that the kooks on the left coast had some support locally.

    California says college athletes can earn money off name. Will NC, other states follow?
    https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article235627817.html
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    1984: I would argue there is even a further split between the revenue sports and the non-revenue sports on the future path of the athlete.  With most of the non-revenue sports, it's pretty clear to the student athlete that there's no monetary path outside of what the degree provides, unless one is of Olympic caliber.  My personal experience (and all the stats the NCAA likes to cite), show these non-revenue sports kids more apt to graduate than the average student population.  Playing the sport helps provide the more rounded resume that gets one into better graduate programs, opens up things like Rhodes Scholarships, etc..

    The problem is P5 football and men's basketball.  These kids are at the big D1 school to go pro in the sport, despite the incredibly long odds (probably better than the Olympic sports, but still 1000:1 for kids that made it this far).  They're marginal students who have massive time commitments playing the sport and traveling, and are funneled into the weak majors designed to keep them eligible.  They're used and tossed aside while the coaches and schools make millions.

    To really fix this I think the large programs need to look to D3, or to a lesser extent men's baseball or women's basketball.  The model is working properly in D3, and there's a lot less money involved.

    The biggest issue in my mind is this minor league sports problem.  The NCAA is filling in the demand gap for football and men's basketball, and one can't blame them.  At the same time, we should recognize that these are minor leagues and pay accordingly.
  • GasHouseGangstaGasHouseGangsta Posts: 223
    edited October 1
    I don’t think this fixes anything at all. Stupid. If you want to profit, go pro, go overseas. The schools provide the venue, as do the media corps, to create value. No school, no tv, no value to player. I know EA and other game companies settled, but the NCAA is going to fight this one hard. The schools remain, by definition, non profit educational entities. How would the sale of ones likeness not automatically jeopardize ones amateur status?

    the appropriate way to fix this is to reform non-profit law and tax code imo.


  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,598
    I don’t think this fixes anything at all. Stupid. If you want to profit, go pro, go overseas. The schools provide the venue, as do the media corps, to create value. No school, no tv, no value to player. I know EA and other game companies settled, but the NCAA is going to fight this one hard. The schools remain, by definition, non profit educational entities. How would the sell of ones likeness not automatically jeopardize ones amateur status?

    the appropriate way to fix this is to reform non-profit law and tax code imo.


    I guess the young lady (and I think it was plural) that were Duke  CoEds and avoided student loan liabilities by getting “Sugar Daddies” or doing Porn were way ahead of the curve....

    Wonder if the Sweet Caroline’s of the ‘80s would now request payment?

    gotta love this.....
  • "To really fix this I think the large programs need to look to D3, or to a lesser extent men's baseball or women's basketball."

    well, that is where a program is headed unless they fall in line with CA.
  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 732
    So many thoughts on this.

    1) Don’t buy the straw man that college athletes are exploited. That’s simply untrue. 95% of these athletes are getting the bargain of a lifetime.
    2) There is a small group who are worth significantly more than a scholarship - and this is proven by the current FBI case and plenty of other deals that have never been proven. If you command over 100k a year, and you are prevented from getting that, you fall into the “exploited” category.
    3) The only reason this issue exists is because major college universities in this country have decided to compromise their primary mission - to educate students, in order to chase the revenue and pride from building a successful program.
    4) In this pursuit, they have gladly served as a de facto minor league for America’s 2 most profitable professional sports.
    5) The colleges have used the money from these 2 sports to fund the rest of their athletic department.

    It’s a model that anywhere other than college campuses would fail to survive. This law just lets players get paid.
  • ^100% agree with Chop. If one was to monetize the benefits of not only scholarship but travel, training, medical care, tutoring, etc, those benefits would far exceed your basic tuition and room and board and books.

    Law doesn’t fix the core problem, #3 above



     
  • freshmanin83freshmanin83 Posts: 947PFN Referee
    I don't know all the numbers but have you guys also seen reports that only the top programs pay for themselves. Not sure if they are funding the other sports?
  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 732
    Freshmanin83 - what reports? Let’s just use common sense.

    Let’s conservatively estimate we are selling 35k tickets per game @ 50.00 a ticket. Let’s multiply that X 60. That’s 10.5 million just from the ticket sales in revenue alone. (To put this in perspective, I am linking a report that shows total revenue from women’s sports @ 3.62 million in 2018.  (This same report shows that men’s sports made 15 million while women’s sports lost 6 million. (Yay pay equity.)  Of course, only 2 men’s programs make money. So yes, these 2 sports pay for everything. In worst case, they don’t hemorrhage money like virtually every other sport on a college campus does.

    Here’s a link from Forbes that shows the Top 25 most profitable football programs...you can see over 25 make more than 25 million a year. I suspect State’s football program make between 5-15 million per year.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2019/09/12/college-football-most-valuable-clemson-texas-am/#2e770bb6a2e7

    Here’s an article showing a breakdown between men’s and women’s revenue.

    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/north-carolina-state-university-at-raleigh/student-life/sports/


  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    I agree with 3/4 from chop.  Those are the big driving issues, and are why these are the two broken sports.

    The vast majority of D1 Athletics Departments run in the red.  Something is way off with the spending, particularly in football, so I am not sure I agree with point 5.  That point is used to justify irresponsible spending (in football).

    I tend to think that the non-profit status of all this needs to change.  I would modify point 3 slightly.  The colleges indeed are making deals with the devil, but that revenue is zero net sum.  They’re spending all of it and more.  

    They’re willing to make that deal because of the free advertising they get to attract more and better applicants, which in turn propels their other rankings, what they can charge those admitted and helps open up on the grant and donor giving. The actual academics doing the mission of the school are begrudgingly willing to deal with the ~ 100 marginal students, fake classes, etc. if it keeps the bigger machine greased.  

    Every single one of these schools wants the Duke basketball effect. Duke was not a top 10 national university before K.  They were a good school, but the Methodist version of Baptist Wake Forest. K made Duke and stuffed its coffers with billions in endowments, so he is a god on that campus, much like Paterno was at Penn State. While JoePa’s impact was smaller, one can see just how much the university is willing to cover up to keep that money flowing in. 

    One has to look no further than Virginia Tech, Pitt, Florida State and most recently Clemson to see how sports success opens wallets that substantially improve the academic profile of the school. Louisville had this at the core of their pitch to join the ACC.

    As to why that happens, I see two things.  The first is clearly point three, about the de facto minor leagues.  

    The second is the admission of substandard students to run that engine.  A lot of this cleans up if the kids playing on the teams have to be good enough students to be generally admitted into the school.  That is more the case (not always as these admissions scandals have shown) in the non-revenue sports or at D3 schools. It has been an issue with the “minor league” sports for a long, long time (again back to that halo effect).

    And this view leads me back to the “exploited” narrative.  The tuition cost is totally arbitrary, set by the schools, and what each student pays varies by the discount. I would argue that would be hard to place a fair value on.  It is doubling troubling (and hard to argue value for) if the students are funneled into worthless programs designed to keep them eligible.  Room and board, travel expenses, tutoring and the insurance premiums/copays to pay for the medical issues (which are caused by the sports but don’t come with worker’s compensation for the long term ramifications) do not in my mind remotely equate to the fair market value to these universities as a whole of the fruits of their labor in the two revenue sports. Those kids should get a salary.

    I do agree that the non-profit sports and D3 strike a better balance. I would probably make the argument that the tuition, room and board, travel, medical, tutoring, etc. do tend to roughly equal out.  I do think those should all be full rides as long as one can play the sport.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    Chop: Football hemmorages money.  My FIL is the academic representative to the NCAA for his university and thus gets access to a lot of data, talks with peers, etc.. There are only about 20 programs that actually run in the black.  Most schools are piling up debt to chase the Duke basketball dream.
  • 1984Met1984Met Posts: 121
    edited October 2
    Great discussion!

    Don't know if this is a solution or not.  My two cents worth is that college football and basketball should go the way of the baseball standard for college athletes who get drafted -- either go pro or the pro team keeps your rights for a period of time.  I do think both the NBA and NFL should have minor leagues up to MLB's quality and quantity.  Anyone who wants to go pro during or after high school should be given the opportunity. 

    Really it should be the same way that it is in other areas of life.  The person has to weigh the results of their action, i.e. if going professional after high school doesn't get me the bucks, should I go to college and work at it?  It seems to me we are in an instant gratification culture which isn't really good for anyone.  That is where parents and mentors should come into the equation to help advise the young person (not hangers-on, rabid media, and unscrupulous "agents").

    I would not be able to stand the "Duke basketball dream" standard if there is something going on behind the scenes.  If it is up to snuff then all the better.  (Not the piling up debt part to chase the dream but the acquiring the coach part to make it happen.)
  • TexpackTexpack Posts: 1,513
    ryebread said:
    Chop: Football hemmorages money.  My FIL is the academic representative to the NCAA for his university and thus gets access to a lot of data, talks with peers, etc.. There are only about 20 programs that actually run in the black.  Most schools are piling up debt to chase the Duke basketball dream.
    Chop is right on target with the points about exploitation.

    Rye - Is TV revenue counted in the "running in the black calculations" for all of those schools?  
  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 732
    ryebread said:
    Chop: Football hemmorages money.  My FIL is the academic representative to the NCAA for his university and thus gets access to a lot of data, talks with peers, etc.. There are only about 20 programs that actually run in the black.  Most schools are piling up debt to chase the Duke basketball dream.
    Rye - in 2017-2018, we had 12.5 million in ticket sales alone. (DD’s salary is 3 million.) That’s not even TV money - which is probably close to the same (or possibly more.) If you look at the link I included, you can see the total revenue for men’s sports and women’s sports.

    If you look at women’s basketball, in the same report, they bragged about selling 1000 season tickets. Those tix are $100 for an adult for an entire season. Wes Moore’s salary is 750,000. His salary isn’t covered by season ticket sales, much less his assistants. THAT is hemorrhaging money. 

    I am not saying all football programs are profitable. But for P5 schools, they produce the lion’s share of revenue. Yes, they spend a ton, but you CAN be profitable in football and a 10% profit in football covers a lot of losses and yes, allows for a lot of irresponsible spending by university administrators.
  • freshmanin83freshmanin83 Posts: 947PFN Referee
    https://college.lovetoknow.com/campus-life/does-college-football-make-money

    Only about twenty or eight, depending on which report you believe, programs pay for the rest of the college athletic department. 
  • freshmanin83freshmanin83 Posts: 947PFN Referee
    edited October 2
    While the majority of division one college football teams at least pay for themselves 58%, 42% operate at a loss. Not sure if debt was a part of the calculations of not.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-revenue-expense-report-2011-6
  • WulfpackWulfpack Posts: 1,288
    I know when UNC Charlotte did the football study before adding the program, it was determined to be a huge expense. 
  • WulfpackWulfpack Posts: 1,288
    ryebread said:
    1984: I would argue there is even a further split between the revenue sports and the non-revenue sports on the future path of the athlete.  With most of the non-revenue sports, it's pretty clear to the student athlete that there's no monetary path outside of what the degree provides, unless one is of Olympic caliber.  My personal experience (and all the stats the NCAA likes to cite), show these non-revenue sports kids more apt to graduate than the average student population.  Playing the sport helps provide the more rounded resume that gets one into better graduate programs, opens up things like Rhodes Scholarships, etc..

    The problem is P5 football and men's basketball.  These kids are at the big D1 school to go pro in the sport, despite the incredibly long odds (probably better than the Olympic sports, but still 1000:1 for kids that made it this far).  They're marginal students who have massive time commitments playing the sport and traveling, and are funneled into the weak majors designed to keep them eligible.  They're used and tossed aside while the coaches and schools make millions.

    To really fix this I think the large programs need to look to D3, or to a lesser extent men's baseball or women's basketball.  The model is working properly in D3, and there's a lot less money involved.

    The biggest issue in my mind is this minor league sports problem.  The NCAA is filling in the demand gap for football and men's basketball, and one can't blame them.  At the same time, we should recognize that these are minor leagues and pay accordingly.
    Rye, could you please explain the DIII angle? DIII schools do not offer scholarships. 
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