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Western Carolina GAME thread

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Comments

  • wolfanaticwolfanatic Posts: 351
    DD gives his bettors the push...
  • TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll Posts: 1,777PFN Referee
    Vegas is impressive, baby.
  • wolfanaticwolfanatic Posts: 351
    Despite the missed XP by ULM at Tallahassee, it's just another shit stain on the Willie Taggart machine...Really? ULM at home with a half-filled stadium.. God I love it. Bring the chopping bitches to their knees...
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    We looked good outside of the QB play.  We should have though given the huge talent deficit. We weren’t going to learn anything from this game unless we learned about a problem (or injuries).  We stayed fairly clean outside of the boot for #1. 

    We learned we have no QB.  Neither McKay or Hockman look like the answer at this point unless we are able to break one in.  The fact that Leary is behind both and can’t even get reps against WCU is concerning.  There doesn’t seem to be much competition, outside of tallest Smurf.
  • RickRick Posts: 1,447PFN Referee
    Rye,
    That was my dear about QB. It was fast more likely no one stupid out than it was we had three super stars. It also doesn't bode well for next year.

  • freshmanin83freshmanin83 Posts: 947PFN Referee
    I was hoping/expecting better qb play this game. I am still hoping to see better qb play.
  • YogiNCYogiNC Posts: 458
    Jay Davis part 2.
  • TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll Posts: 1,777PFN Referee
    YogiNC said:
    Jay Davis part 2.
    Shades of Marcus Stone
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    It is not Stone bad.  I think Jay Davis is a good comparison.  Davis would have been fine, but we had little running game and Red Zone Mazzone as OC/QB coach.  Going from Rivers to that was a much bigger drop off than what we have now.
  • Y'all apparently have much better memories of Jay Davis than I do if you think McKay is that bad
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    edited September 9
    GSO:  If you look up Davis’s stats, he wasn’t awful.  What killed us were the pick 6s on the little bubble screens.  For whatever reason he either couldn’t make that throw with touch, or wasn’t tall enough to throw it over a charging lineman.  Regardless old Red Zone did him no favors by continuing to call them.

    McKay has yet to throw a pick, so that comparison may not be fair.  Stone clearly isn’t though. He came in with mega hypes yet could hardly throw a forward pass. McKay is clearly better than that. The only valid Stone comparison would’ve if we were playing Leary and he were throwing it straight into the dirt.  That isn’t happening though.

    I liked the Davis comparison just because he was the next QB after a NFL QB, yet was a solid college QB.  We’d just been spoiled a bit so expectations were so high.  Also the year after Rivers we had the defense and special teams to have an awesome season.  It was the offense that held us back.  In Davis’ case it was him because Maxzone put everything on the QB.

  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 732
    Rye - let’s please rely on emotion instead. It’s much better than facts. Like you, I saw that Davis’ numbers weren’t that bad. He even survived for a bit in NFL camp. What he did do was lose his confidence and I think the staff and team lost confidence in him. In the right system, he could have been ok. Stone was never the same after his hand injury. I don’t know who we had coaching qbs at the time, but it’s obvious there were issues. 

    As for McKay - it’s worrisome that we weren’t moving the ball until we decided to commit to the run. It seems apparent to me that Hockman throws more accurately. I also haven’t been impressed with our offensive play calling in general thus far.

    Right now, I see a 3-5 or 2-6 team unless our offense can improve significantly.

  • choppack1 said:
    Rye - let’s please rely on emotion instead. It’s much better than facts. Like you, I saw that Davis’ numbers weren’t that bad. He even survived for a bit in NFL camp. What he did do was lose his confidence and I think the staff and team lost confidence in him. In the right system, he could have been ok. Stone was never the same after his hand injury. I don’t know who we had coaching qbs at the time, but it’s obvious there were issues. 

    As for McKay - it’s worrisome that we weren’t moving the ball until we decided to commit to the run. It seems apparent to me that Hockman throws more accurately. I also haven’t been impressed with our offensive play calling in general thus far.

    Right now, I see a 3-5 or 2-6 team unless our offense can improve significantly.

    Good news / bad news

    Good News! We have guys running open downfield, guys are getting open behind the defense! Big play potential is there.

    Bad News 😒 Our qb's accuracy on downfield passes is looking real suspect. None of his deep throws have been particularly close to being caught.

    Good News! Our qb is making smart decisions with the football! None of his passes have been close to being intercepted and a very few have been able to be knocked away by DBs.

    Bad News 😒 Our WRs and TEs keep running routes short of the sticks so even third down completions are ending drives.

    Good News! Our QB has completed multiple out routes to the wide side of the field, one of the hardest throws in football. 

    Bad News 😒 Our QB has overthrown or thrown behind our 6'7" tight end multiple times. Throwing to a big target over the middle of the field is supposed to be some of the easier throws in football.

    Good News! Our QB has thrown for a pile of yards with a sold yards per attempt and good accuracy!

    Bad News 😒 the competition has been poor. The receivers have been able to get wide open and alot of those yards are coming after the catch against bad teams.

    We just have to hope McKay can continue to get more reps and work on timing with his receivers. He has shown the arm strength to throw to every level. I honestly think he is playing well enough and we have enough skill talent and the dfenses that we play are bad enough that he probably has until Boston College to take the next step. But that's why you play the games.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,598
    choppack1 said:
    Rye - let’s please rely on emotion instead. It’s much better than facts. Like you, I saw that Davis’ numbers weren’t that bad. He even survived for a bit in NFL camp. What he did do was lose his confidence and I think the staff and team lost confidence in him. In the right system, he could have been ok. Stone was never the same after his hand injury. I don’t know who we had coaching qbs at the time, but it’s obvious there were issues. 

    As for McKay - it’s worrisome that we weren’t moving the ball until we decided to commit to the run. It seems apparent to me that Hockman throws more accurately. I also haven’t been impressed with our offensive play calling in general thus far.

    Right now, I see a 3-5 or 2-6 team unless our offense can improve significantly.

    Good news / bad news

    Good News! We have guys running open downfield, guys are getting open behind the defense! Big play potential is there.

    Bad News 😒 Our qb's accuracy on downfield passes is looking real suspect. None of his deep throws have been particularly close to being caught.

    Good News! Our qb is making smart decisions with the football! None of his passes have been close to being intercepted and a very few have been able to be knocked away by DBs.

    Bad News 😒 Our WRs and TEs keep running routes short of the sticks so even third down completions are ending drives.

    Good News! Our QB has completed multiple out routes to the wide side of the field, one of the hardest throws in football. 

    Bad News 😒 Our QB has overthrown or thrown behind our 6'7" tight end multiple times. Throwing to a big target over the middle of the field is supposed to be some of the easier throws in football.

    Good News! Our QB has thrown for a pile of yards with a sold yards per attempt and good accuracy!

    Bad News 😒 the competition has been poor. The receivers have been able to get wide open and alot of those yards are coming after the catch against bad teams.

    We just have to hope McKay can continue to get more reps and work on timing with his receivers. He has shown the arm strength to throw to every level. I honestly think he is playing well enough and we have enough skill talent and the dfenses that we play are bad enough that he probably has until Boston College to take the next step. But that's why you play the games.
    Maybe he plans on breaking RW record for longest streak without an INT....  is that based on flings or caughts?  Having watched him for 6 or 7 quarters, he needs to twist the elevation knob on his “sights” in the DOWN direction....

    Casual observations also include that DD and entourage showed good clock management skills at the end of H1 against WCU.  There are game conditions, even against lesser quality that help improve your total program.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    edited September 9
    choppack1 said:


    As for McKay - it’s worrisome that we weren’t moving the ball until we decided to commit to the run. It seems apparent to me that Hockman throws more accurately. I also haven’t been impressed with our offensive play calling in general thus far.



    I agree with you on these things....
    - WCU game: We could run at will and seemingly knew that from the first snap. I figured we were trying to pass to improve at passing and break our QB in.  Eventually we kind of gave up and said "screw it, time to blow them out and hit the spread" so we went to the ground. That's fine in the construct of the game, but isn't helping us long term.  It did serve to shorten the game and get us out with minimal injuries, which is all we could really hope for out of that game (besides the pay check).  I agree that concerning would be an accurate way to describe things.

    - Hockman: He does seem more accurate in his limited action.  He also threw a couple of passes to receivers that didn't seem that open. Maybe he is one that is struggling with not throwing it to the other team in practice?  I also worry that DD is in love with mobile QBs and given the choice between two that he sees as equal would go towards a running type.  I'm more of one who thinks that QBs need to pass first.  Different philosophies I guess, but he's the guy getting paid millions to coach our team, so I think we'll see running QBs.

    - I'd agree with you that the play calling has been a bit disjointed. I think we look pretty good on first/second down. I think at one point we were averaging like 9 yards on first down.  Third has clearly had its issues and those are well documented.  I cannot tell whether it is the call or execution, and given we don't really know the call then it's hard to say.

    Oh well... Things to improve on I guess.

    Berryfarmer: I like your contrasts.  I would add one more good news/bad news:

    Good news: We are using the interior of the field more this year and our RBs and TEs actually are getting targeted for catches.

    Bad news: Our wide outs aren't getting the targets and the field likely will get very clogged up in the middle between the run game and the passes to the middle.
  • Ok, so I went back and looked at Jay Davis' stats and there isn't much way to polish the turd that is the number of picks he threw, but he did start the season as well as McKay.

    So, perhaps there are enough similarities along with the fact that we were coming off having an NFL-caliber QB to capitulate that it is a reasonable comparison of the two. ;)

    The big differences to me are that McKay has the ability to run and that our play calling is doing a little better job of using the talent we have compared to 2004.  That was TA's final year and we also had Darrel Blackman, Tramain Hall, and Richard Washington.  

    That year had some bad calls and some bad breaks, but there was bad coaching in my opinion, including the "let's kick the ball to Devon Hester to start the game".

    Overall, it seems that Davis started ok, but the wheels came off the bus and we had nobody behind him.  By the looks of it, I'd say that not the case here, but time will tell.

    With that said, I want a QB (and an offense) to have a bit more of an attitude to them to match our defensive intensity.  I feel DD (and O'Brien) prefers to have a bit more of a safe QB, rather than someone with more potential (upside and downside).

    Maybe I've heard too many times about how our QB hasn't thrown a pick in so many attempts.  Nice stat, but if we lose the game, then it really doesn't mean much to me.

    I don't have to have a gunslinger under center, but I do want someone who has the confidence, skill, and decision-making ability to know when to take more risk downfield.




  • GreywolfGreywolf Posts: 647
    "I feel DD (and O'Brien) prefers to have a bit more of a safe QB, rather than someone with more potential (upside and downside)." TOB had Wilson and Glennon. Dorman  had Brissett and Finley. All four are in the pros. I don't know what is meant by "safe QB."

    Then we go to message boards and read the following kind of comments.

    Our current QB hands the ball off to running backs very well. He's not a great passer but he's safe. Would you repeat that please? "Not a great passer but safe." What the hell is that?

    He doesn't complete deep balls but he throws them far enough over the receivers head that they are not intercepted. He's only been playing QB for 3 years of HS and 2 years of back-up in college but this is just his first start. He just needs a few games to get broken in. 

    No need to give the other QBs game time. If they succeed, it will just create confusion and a QB controversy.

    Sounds to me like a collegiate clusterfuck.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    edited September 9
    In a few weeks, I think we'll know more....... Hopefully we keep winning while we grow the QB.
  • Grey, let me clarify.

    I believe that DD prefers his QB to play safely.  That is, I believe (yes, solely my perception here) that if he had two identical QB's skill-wise, but one took more risks than the other (threw more picks, also but made more big plays), he would prefer the more conservative QB approach.

    I realize QB selection and play calling don't happen in a vacuum, and what's happening on the other side of the ball impacts to varying degrees what is done on offense.  However, having seen, heard, and watched both DD and O'Brien, I believe that is more their nature.  Fwiw, I think Amato was 180 degrees opposite.

    I don't see this as a right or wrong approach, just noting what I see as a pattern or preference by the head coach.

    As for giving other QBs game time, if Doeren is completely content with McKay, then the only point of playing anyone else is to keep McKay healthy to develop a backup who is ready to step in if needed.

    As for creating a cluster, you have a point.  However, playing only one QB when you should play two can create a cluster as well, just may take more time.  I don't know the right answer, but unless our defense can continue these results come conference play, I believe we'll need a little more out of the QB to reach 8 wins.
  • This is an interesting article about inherent vs attainable traits for QBs. 

    http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/
  • GreywolfGreywolf Posts: 647
    Gso - :Protect the ball may be the phrase we are looking for. INTs are a fact of life for teams that throw the ball. Foolish chances are to be avoided.

    It's obvious we have more questions than we do answers. I really don't care what we do at this point but requiring a QB to be more concerned with safety than being an effective QB? Not how to develop talent. Sounds like the old standard, prevent defense. A defense that doesn't prevent anything except incompletions.
  • Grey, protect the ball is a better term in this context.  We all want the QB have excellent decision-making skills (inherent trait per BerryFarmer's link) without being too risk averse.  Hopefully, in our case it is merely a matter of building a certain degree of confidence.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 1,042
    Amato and DD were about as opposite as two coaches could be.  That pendulum swung all the way when we hired TOB.

    DD is a bit more like what TOB said he was than he is like Amato.  He reminds me most of Sheridan.  I'm fine with that as that's been the high water mark for NC State football in my lifetime.
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