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Guns

RickRick PFN Referee Posts: 1,125
I think there are some fellow gun lovers on the board (heck I know for sure about one). I am thinking about getting a .45. Any suggestions? I looked at the Springfield xd45 mod. I have an xd40 and love it.
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Comments

  • Pack78Pack78 Posts: 182
    My son has an XD40-very pleased with it as well...
  • Vawolf82Vawolf82 PFN Referee Posts: 224
    I’ve shot the soringfield 45 and liked it.    I would prefer a 1911, but the Springfield shoots probably better than I do.   

  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    edited March 1
    OK....first TROLL will have to divest his files of all the info to get to me.

    THAT depends.....

    WHAT is the intended purpose of the GUN?

    WHY do you want a 45 ACP?  (more on this later)

    I have shot and owned guns for over 60 years and a few years ago I started shooting for more than just...."Plinking".  That caused me to "assess" my collection and I have done a LOT of rearranging....and constantly learn from others (friends and a shooting coach with esteemed credentials).

    First UP....for Target Shooting....it is HARD to beat a 22LR Semi Auto.  Ruger's Mark Series (Mark V) is unbeatable...but the Browning Buck Mark is close behind.  I know one "Marksman" with many NRA ribbons that shoots a Buck Mark Field Target right out of the box and has a very cheap "optic" on it....THAT is what I would recommend for "Learning to shoot".

    Next up....from a cost standpoint, the 9mm is the hands down favorite.  You can NOT touch it.....the 45 ACP is the next cheapest or maybe the .38 Special (if a revolver is your thing).

    A good Ruger or Smith and Wesson (others but I like these) .357  revolver which will chamber a .38 Sp round is what I would migrate to from the 22 Semi.  The trigger pull will be a DREAM.  Trigger pull is the KEY (along with basics in all the OTHER mechanics of shooting) to accuracy.  SO....a Revolver is the second choice....also from a SAFETY and Reliability stand point.....as well as "cleaning".

    BUT IF someone has their heart set on a Semi-Auto....then the 9mm would be the FIRST choice....

    In that category.....there are MORE decisions.

    The XD45 is a "striker" fired gun.  It does NOT have an "open hammer" on the back.  The trigger pull on a Striker Fired Gun is MUCH heavier as you have to "LIFT UP" the striker release....then you have the "travel" and then the "striker" moves.  MOST folks that are serious about shooting will opt for a "Hammer Gun".  Springfield Arms makes a "45 Range Officer" that I plan on getting.  CZ makes a line of CZ 75 that are HAMMER....

    You will be MORE accurate with a 9mm HAMMER style gun than any Striker Fired (No visible hammer) gun.  I have shot a Glock and a Smith for almost two years....BOTH are striker and BOTH have had "trigger improvements" and have high quality OPTIC sights....

    BUT, the first time I shot a "Target" CZ75, SHORT BARREL with stock OPEN SIGHTS, I was more accurate than with my OWN "striker....longer barreled" guns. HOOKED I SAY....so I bought a CZ Shadow 2 and it is a DREAM.  It has a "Single Action Revolver" feel trigger.  Folks that shoot it lust over it.  Many of them are much better shots than I am and they talk about saving their dimes and quarters and getting one.

    NOW.....READ ON...about the 45....

    The Springfield XD45 is a small Sub-Compact hand gun. it is a FINE gun....many prefer it over a Smith or a Glock.....BUT..unless you are an accomplished shooter, it will frustrate you MORE than you will believe.  I can handle the recoil of a 44 Mag....and have taken a deer with one.  I chose the 9mm Sub Compact Rugers for my "Potentially Carry" weapon.  They shoot great.  The recoil is manageable.  The ammo is cheap.  I can "Practice" and become proficient with them.  I DO NOT use them for serious paper punching or target work.  BUT, with any of my (I own 4....long story) Ruger LC9S's....I can easily hold 13 or 14 shots (from three 5 shot groups or 15) within a 10" Pie Paper Pie plate at 7 yards  the errant flyers are really CLOSE....or within the "body silohette" of the target.  

    The XD45 is designed for 7 Yards SELF DEFENSE....  A 45 is MUCH harder to tame or manage....you need WEIGHT (of the gun) to absorb the recoil.  I would ONLY recommend it to someone that has mastered a similar 9mm weapon and wants to "Own one of them 45's....as it will put the HURT on anyone messing with them".  YES..it is a bigger diameter....

    I can tell you that a single 9mm Jacketed Hollow Point 124 Grain bullet will do IMMENSE damage to someone....ask a Trauma Surgeon at any of the local ER's.  THEY will tell you that a 9mm is DEADLY or will cause a LOT of damage. 

    If you look at the Kinetic Energy (stopping power), the aforementioned 9mm is about the SAME as the equivalent 45....the 9mm has MORE muzzle velocity.  Kinetic Energy is one HALF the Mass (of the projectile) TIMES the VELOCITY SQUARED....so the 9mm travels FASTER....and the resulting energy is the same....MAYBE some 45 are a little stronger.

    BUT....do NOT shoot or use the +P loads (which are MUCH faster, therefore....more energy) in the sub compacts lie the XD or the Rugers.  The shorter barrel does not produce the Muzzle Velocity required to get FULL benefit from the +P

    WOW....that was long.....I have put a LOT of time studying gun decisions and talking to folks and reading....and it has taken me a LOT of years to figure out what I WANT and what I NEED.  You can contact Troll OFFLINE and have him forward me your email address and I will be glad to "provide info".
  • RickRick PFN Referee Posts: 1,125
    Thanks. Email sent
  • TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll PFN Referee Posts: 1,360
    you can just send a "inbox" message between one another.. click the link at the top of the page "Inbox" and then from there click "New Message"
  • TexpackTexpack Posts: 1,118
    I’ve got guns, but only when I wear short sleeves. 
  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 PFN Referee Posts: 1,894
    apropos of nothing, my daughters shot a gun for the first time last autumn.  And it turns out that the quasi-vegan twin is a deadeye, Annie Oakley type.

    /and she's eating everything but beef and dairy again  :smiley:

    //I have never owned nor fired a gun, but I see the allure of it, and respect everyone's right to enjoy whatever floats their boat

    ///not meaning a political de-rail!!
  • Fastback68Fastback68 Posts: 199
    I inherited my dad’s 1911.  I have reservations about shooting it but I guess my son needs to know how to handle it since it will be his someday.  If anyone turkey hunts, buy some Federal TSS and range it at 70 yards.  Never seen anything like it.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    Fastback68.

    I would NOT be so quick as to shoot it without doing some research.  If it is a Colt "70 series" or older or if it says "Gold Cup or National Match", you MIGHT be surprised to see how much it is worth.  Not knowing your age, but a friend of mine has a cousin that served in Viet Nam.  He was a member of a "loosely organized" NON Military Sponsored shooting team while on one of the bases during his enlistment.  The Government "Gave" them some Gold Cup or National Match guns that were specially produced and accurizied.  He supposedly has it stored somewhere in his attic.  Sort of like the 1953 Vette in the little old ladies garage.

    That particular gun is selling for over $15K today.  I would get pictures of it and the SN and then find out what it is worth....  There are plenty of sites....but do NOT take a seemingly "outlandishly high offer" locally....unless you totally know the worth.

    I was surprised to see how much these guns, as well as some other Colt's have increased in value....

    If it is a Run of the Mill, then clean it and shoot it and enjoy it....
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    apropos of nothing, my daughters shot a gun for the first time last autumn.  And it turns out that the quasi-vegan twin is a deadeye, Annie Oakley type.

    /and she's eating everything but beef and dairy again  :smiley:

    //I have never owned nor fired a gun, but I see the allure of it, and respect everyone's right to enjoy whatever floats their boat

    ///not meaning a political de-rail!!
    King,

    Funny thing....I have a very accomplished coach and you can find his name in a lot of matches at the top or in teams that were top finishers.  His BEST student....

    An Asian lady....probably in her late 20's.  She started shooting with a friend at a local gun club.  One thing lead to another and she enjoyed it.  She sought him out to help her.  In about 24 months, from never firing a gun (45, 9mm or 22) she is considered to be one of the best Bullseye shooters in the area.  She puts a LOT of time into it and has spent some $$ on equipment.  BUT, her natural talent....plus her dedication and understanding the "cause - effect" relationship of form, posture, eye hand coordination, etc. make her a champion.  She is very petite....one could stereotype her as a maid or server.  She is very well educated and works as a member of upper management in a large local high tech company.  Few would guess that she can hold 2" groups with open sights at 50 Yards with a 45....and that is SINGLE HANDED....not 2.  She makes 95% of the folks at our range feel "Inferior"....and her name is spoken in hushed and reverent tones....

    Who knows....your daughter could be a champion....just needing the right coach...
  • Fastback68Fastback68 Posts: 199
    Roo, I got it appraised just a few weeks ago.  I overheard the 2 guys looking at it say it was a Lend Lease.  I haven’t really looked it over in detail.  Not sure what to look for unless it was stamped in some way.  We got sidetracked on another dozen appraisals and I forgot to ask.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    edited March 2
    Email Troll at bottom of page. I will then email you directly. Have a friend that is an expert at values and such. He will do research and give you some links. No rush if you want to pursue. He is not a trader or buyer. 

    He he had an extensive collection and sold off what he did not shoot. Enjoys the chase and keeping current. Obviously no cost
  • wolfpack4everwolfpack4ever Posts: 36
    edited March 2
    Rick said:
    I think there are some fellow gun lovers on the board (heck I know for sure about one). I am thinking about getting a .45. Any suggestions? I looked at the Springfield xd45 mod. I have an xd40 and love it.

    Rick, 

    I personally think that while the decision should ultimately be yours alone.  However, in order to discuss and offer opinion, we should know what your planned usage is to be for this new 45.  Concealed carry, home defense, “car gun”, range time fun?

    Thanks.
  • RickRick PFN Referee Posts: 1,125
    Home defense and fun gun
    I have a cc. 
  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 PFN Referee Posts: 1,894
    Annie Oakley is the one kid I have with a chance (matched with desire) to go to NC State.  I will encourage her to take something gun related for PE, if she can.  Good way to burn off stress and anger.  Hell, if I shot, maybe I wouldn't be so pissed off while I drive!

    Plus, like, when society breaks down...she can protect us and whatnot!
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    edited March 2
    In ALL seriousness, we have a coed shooting team.  We USED to allow real LIVE Powder Propelled Projectiles.  But now, I think that are either .22 or .177 air or CO2 powered.

    But the basics are the same.....you just graduate to something with more recoil 
  • YogiNCYogiNC Posts: 361
    Rick, If you like that Sig I sold you then you'll love the Sig P220.  Same feel and optics, only bigger.  It has the heft and a longer length to reduce flip.  It's been around since 1976 and is ultra reliable.  Trigger pull is really smooth.  I'm sure there are a couple of ranges around that have some to rent and try.  I've shot quite a few 45s and that's my favorite.  Have some friends who have them too and one uses it for personal carry.  That thing at 7.7" is a bit too big for that from my perspective.  

    As an aside for home defense get a Mossberg 930 tactical or 500 series tactical.  Shorter, better sights, and if you need to use it the intruder is either dead or the only thing they'll leave behind is crap and tennis shoes.  BIG booms always win, and chances are with that you will have the bigger boom.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    Nice alternative.  The Rickster and I have exchanged emails and I now better understand.  I started my thesis with a 12 or 20 G pump...should have said....with barrel trimmed to 18.125”.

    I also suggested the CZ-97B which is the big bore of the CZ-75B.  The Sig is an alloy frame 45.  It would be lighter, should you choose to open carry....as Jaba the Hut is the only sized person that can Conceal Carry such.  However, for home defense, since both are DA/SA, I would go with the steel frame CZ.  That extra weight would make “taming” the 45 a bit easier on the range.

    i have a renowned Bullseye coach....who also for “fun” shoots Glocks in competitive when he gets bored.  He has extensive knowledge in self defense.  The Bullseye shooters RARELY, I am told, shoot alloy frames to reduce flip and such.  They shoot full size steel 1911.  

    I got tired of being frustrated with polymer (plastic) striker fired 9mm and splurged and got a 9mm  CZ Shadow 2, which is a factory fitted, souped up target version of the CZ-75.  It is BIG in that it weighs about 10% MORE than the 45.  But, when you pull the 1.75/2.0 # trigger, there is no flip or recoil.  My coach could easily hold 3” groups at 50 yds if he tuned the ammo a bit.  I ain’t nowhere close....but I can, with factory ammo, be really accurate at 15 and 25 yards.

    Shooting a 9mm that is about the same weight as a 1911 45 makes it easier to swap calibers....which is what the Bullseye shooters must do.

    For home defense, being able to get off a good first shot as you are adept and proficient with a big bore gun puts me in the CZ corner....vs the Sig.

    Now, if you are an accomplished shooter and can do as well with the lighter Sig as you can with a 1911 or a CZ 97, then that changes things.  All a matter of what you can shoot with and also shoot accurately.


  • GowolvesGowolves Posts: 200
    I have a Springfield XDS compact 9mm. I carry that most of the time. Easy for CC. My other 9mm is a Beretta APX 9mm. It’s a double stack but I love that gun. The trigger was the main reason I bought it. Not a loose trigger like the Springfield. I shoot often at the Triangle Shooting Academy near the RDU. It’s a nice place and the people are down to earth. 
  • RickRick PFN Referee Posts: 1,125
    Roo,
    Thanks for the great email. I responded.

    I do have a 12 gauge. 
    Btw yogi, I love that sig. I carry it.

  • GowolvesGowolves Posts: 200
    edited March 2
    I think you will see less and less manufacturers make the .40 caliber. That’s what most of the people @TSA were saying last night when I went shooting. It’s a “redundant caliber” was the way they put it.

    Glad I traded my .40 when I did. 
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    Many of the Durham County LEO are being switched to 9mm.  A friend’s Daughter, who is a college grad, was telling me about the switch.  She is a parole officer...that is hoping to get a position in Wake.  Her service 40 will be turned in and she will be issue a 9mm.  Her private CC, and she had to go through the SAME course as we civilians do, is a 9mm.  Turns out she had  went through same course and instructor that my wife took.  BOTH were the Annie Oakley’s and had the best range scores.

    She was told, OTR, that the LEO scores were so low for the 40 that there would have been a massive “retraining program” and that the “rules” might have eliminated a bunch of Sr. High Ranking officers.  So, back to the 9mm so they could get their annual qualification.

    FBI has switched back to 9mm and THEY were the ones that lead the charge for the 10mm.  It morphed into the SW 40 and Smith did some ballistic and ergo work that improved it.  More knock down power don’t count for squat if you don’t HIT the target or whatever.  Even handloading, the 40 is a very expensive round.  Hard to beat $0.15 - $0.16 9mm ammo.  I only hand load to fine tune.  I catch the sales at Walmart or online and buy 1000 case quantities.

    So...if you have a 3.5 or maybe 4” or longer 9mm “defense” gun and are proficient in hitting the target, you are more “protected” when you bump up the self defense loads to the +P.  They make more noise....and you don’t want to feed even the highest quality weapon a steady diet....but when it counts...it gonna put some serious hurts on whatever it hits...


  • YogiNCYogiNC Posts: 361
    Never considered the .40 for any purchase.  Ammo more expensive, no discernible advantage over 9mm.  
  • RickRick PFN Referee Posts: 1,125
    YogiNC said:
    Never considered the .40 for any purchase.  Ammo more expensive, no discernible advantage over 9mm.  


    I bought it before I knew better. I will like it but ammo is expensive
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,113
    edited March 3
    Rick said:
    YogiNC said:
    Never considered the .40 for any purchase.  Ammo more expensive, no discernible advantage over 9mm.  


    I bought it before I knew better. I will like it but ammo is expensive
    You ain’t alone.  I sort through left over range brass at our club and salvage the 9mm.  Lots of 40 and a good bit of Sig 357....

    Every gun designer has worked with the ballistics engineers to wring out all the accuracy they can.  The 9mm is about as perfectly tuned for 25 yards as you can get it.  The 45 is fine tuned at 50 yards. Based on the Bullseye distances, it shows.

    if that much work had gone into the 40, it would have been a better cartridge.  It just has more flip and recoil issues than the 9mm.  But, the Bullseye guys shoot 40 to 46 Oz (dry) guns.  That compares to the 20 to maybe 28 Oz striker fired.  The increased mass, once you strengthen your arm a little, really reduces your groups....along with a simple hammer firing pin compared to the lift to fire striker guns.

    if you enjoy the 40 and don’t shoot 250 or so every time you go out....keep banging with it.

    if you master it, you will be an overall better marksman.
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