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Giglio's take on NC State free throw discrepancy vs. ACC opponents

TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll Posts: 1,650PFN Referee
edited January 26 in Wolfpack Sports

This is an interesting article from the N&O.  While what he presents makes sense at first glance I'd have liked to see him:

#1) expand out the FT  data from seasons other than 2016 from KK years at UNCW
#2) review FT data from Gottfried tenure

This would show the data he's using for the article wasn't cherry picked (and I'm not claiming it to be.. just that I can't verify that it wasn't).  I don't have access to the full Pomeroy data myself or I would do it.
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Comments

  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 687
    TAT - I looked at Keatts conference opponents in terms of fouls and free throw frequency, and this should come as no shock to an ACC / NC State fans, there wasn’t the disparity on Keatts teams going to the line....and that’s the real issue isn’t it? I don’t think we’d care if it was close. But it’s not, the 50/50 calls seem to go against us 75% of the time. (See the critical exchange in the Louisville game where Bev gets called for the charge, then the hold...either of those calls could have easily not been made, yet they both were and made against us. And don’t get me started on the criminal call vs Funderburk in the first half.)
  • BrickmanBrickman Posts: 14
    the rumps(refs) make less calls on our offence end of the court ...we drive the ball a lot with less fouls...and it dose matter when you play on the road for sure !!!! he did not address this why because even louisville coach said after game they were fortunate to get to line that many times...we are a better team than cards and decs even without mj
  • RickRick Posts: 1,394PFN Referee
    I have given up on men's basketball. The frustration isn't worth it
  • BrickmanBrickman Posts: 14
    that is bad part  rick !!! you should not have to give up on them..it is bunch of shot !!!!!!! for us fans
  • TheAliasTrollTheAliasTroll Posts: 1,650PFN Referee
    the 50/50 calls seem to go against us 75% of the time

    My "eye test" would agree.


  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 687
    So, you can find some “bulk” data here.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/free-throw-rate?date=2019-01-26

    I like looking at conference games because that’s more of an apple to apple comparison.
  • RickRick Posts: 1,394PFN Referee
    Brickman said:
    that is bad part  rick !!! you should not have to give up on them..it is bunch of shot !!!!!!! for us fans

    I have watched for 40 years and it's no longer worth it. Maybe if something changes but it's obvious we are never going to succeed. Whether it's us or something bigger than us keeping us from success, I won't waste my time. 
  • RickRick Posts: 1,394PFN Referee
    Other teams are just as, if not more, afternoon as we are. Yet we are the ones who get all the calls against us. The blues are given games by refs. It's a farce.
  • Tau837Tau837 Posts: 65
    edited January 26
    Is there an easy source for how many offensive vs. defensive fouls we have this season? Seems like we are called for a lot more offensive fouls than our opponents. And we haven't even played Duke yet...

    If one were to suggest that we drive more than, say, the average ACC team, that might support more offensive fouls... but it would also support more defensive fouls on our opponents, and that isn't happening.

    So it feel to me like there is a definite disparity. I can reasonably attribute some of it to what Giglio wrote, but not all. Like chop said, it feels like we are almost always on the wrong end of the 50/50 calls.

    The only other thing I can think of is that we play an undersized lineup, meaning when our guys drive, they are often driving against bigger players, who have an easier time of defending without fouling...? Seems like a big stretch.
  • WulfpackWulfpack Posts: 1,039
    Keatts’ teams have generally been undersized. 
  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 687
    Remember Tau - we were promised by folks that the reason we don’t go to the line more was because we didn’t drive enough. Our team apparently has destroyed that argument.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,517
    choppack1 said:
    So, you can find some “bulk” data here.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/free-throw-rate?date=2019-01-26

    I like looking at conference games because that’s more of an apple to apple comparison.
    https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/286/p7

    Interesting table.  We are currently TIED with FSU at number 305 and averaging 20.2 Personal Fouls Per Game (PFPG).  The table is ranked, I think, were the LOWEST PFPG is #1 or at the top (page 1).  So we are pretty far down the list.

    Put another way, since you can't reorder or subdivide, WE and the Holligans with the Politically Incorrect (but BOUGHT and PAID FOR) name are at the TOP of the ACC.

    PITT (Jeffie Capel) is number 217 and 18.5 PFPG......obviously the aggressive junk yard dog defense is not getting scrutinized as much.

    Louisville is number 152 and averages 17.8.  So the other night, they were 10.8 Fouls BELOW their season average and we were only 3.8 above ours.  Something is amiss here....but only the AD and/or HBBC KK can bring such to the attention of the ACC.

    UVA and VT are the lowest....

    This was was originally posted in the Louisville thread, but is also pertinent here
  • RickRick Posts: 1,394PFN Referee
    Uva grabs and holds. For them not to have fouls is criminal. 
  • SQLWolfSQLWolf Posts: 90
    I wonder if the ACC refs and their "management" actually study tape on whether they are "performing" well in game time situations. Is there even any process by which the refs go through performance appraisal with remedial training as necessary? I don't care if they blow calls as long as they are "blowing" consistently on both ends of the court.

    Otherwise, ACC refs just blow.
  • RickRick Posts: 1,394PFN Referee
    There appears to be no accountability.
    I see no improvement so there's no reason to believe there is any type of review process. Basically they suck and I see no reason to believe they will improve.
  • TexpackTexpack Posts: 1,413
    This isn’t limited to ACC games. USF shot 41 fret throws in a losing effort against Houston last weekend. The refs took all of the joy out of watching the game. 
  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 2,331PFN Referee
    As long as they don't bone a Dook, U*NC, or Kansas out of a game - nobody cares
  • choppack1choppack1 Posts: 687
    As long as they don't bone a Dook, U*NC, or Kansas out of a game - nobody cares
    So true. I think we all know who NEVER gets screwed over by the officials, and only a fool would think that’s an accident.
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,517
    edited January 28
    choppack1 said:
    As long as they don't bone a Dook, U*NC, or Kansas out of a game - nobody cares
    So true. I think we all know who NEVER gets screwed over by the officials, and only a fool would think that’s an accident.
    Rather timely comment.  I was watching the game, Saturday, on RayCom.  Folks had posted comments about the blatant bias of the commentators.  I really rarely pay too much attention to the prattle.  I also wondered WHICH booth guys they were talking about. RayCom or ESPN.

    DW had a girls day out and daughter had “dad’s” ducat.  DW wanted to see DVR of game, especially the ending.  We watched it after the Lady’s game.

    I casually asked her about the commentary and I also listened to the comments as I could predict the outcome.

    Coach Dave Odom (had a CRS INCIDENT and flashbacked to Carl Tacy - Thanks to Tex for the proofing) was the color analyst.  I have always considered him a quiet and well spoken gentleman and an excellent coach.  He made one very interesting comment about midway into the second half.  The pace of the game had slowed down and there was not frantic scoring.

    This is the gist of his comments as the exact wording is fuzzy.

    ”Coach Keatts (camera cuts to him on the sideline) has a very low key and respectful, but effective, sideline demeanor.  He gets his points across without yelling or theatrics.  He does not berate or “dis” his players and is always positive and motivating them.  He also “works” the officials and has a good rapport with them.  In the ACC today, this is refreshing change.”

    The above is a paraphrase and also my between the lines, “interpretation”. I also thought back to HBBC KK post game presser in the PNC, where he started out....”It was a wonderful and exciting win.  This is a great crowd.  We appreciate our fans.  We still have almost half in the arena.  I would say to any fan, though, listening on the radio, that left before the final buzzer, have confidence in the team.  I did.  I told them all the way through the final seconds that I had a plan and that I knew they could win....”

    Coming from. man wearing a dark blue or maybe charcoal suit jacket with a flaming RED lining....I again decided....he GETS it.  We hired the right guy
  • TexpackTexpack Posts: 1,413
    edited January 28
    Dave Odom on the color I believe. Carl Tacy stuck in makeup getting his hair done
  • KingHippo_fka_BJD95KingHippo_fka_BJD95 Posts: 2,331PFN Referee
    yeah, it was Dave.  And man alive, does Coach Keatts have good fashion sense.  He represents us well and honourably.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 948
    I thought Odom was pretty balanced, which is a rarity in ACC commentary.  It was particularly pleasant given his history with NC State.

    The officiating is god awful and clearly biased.  Swoff needs to go.  I sense the member institutions don't care though because of revenue sharing.  As long as they pad their wallets, they're happy.
  • I would not expect anything from N&O to be in our favor.  Only thing this article proves is what we say - we are not getting to line near the number of times as our opponents and it’s not like they don’t also play aggressive.  
  • AdventurooAdventuroo Posts: 1,517
    Even with Mr. Lukie booing tonight , we had the whistle advantage.  Maybe all fouls are not equal, but we had less.

    Luckie called his share, but his buddies seemed to be more Wahoo prejudiced.

    The crowd felt that UVA should have had 2 X the actual whistles....and UVA DID push off and were aggressive on D.

    We dug ourselves the 50% hole....as in, the margin was 50% of our total points.....42 to 28.
  • ryebreadryebread Posts: 948
    Despite Luckie’s garbage the overall whistle was even last night.   Look what little old N.C. State can do with an even whistle.


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